#19 Running Form Demystified: 3 Game-Changing Tips for Efficiency

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome. I'm Dr Moose Herring, Orthopedic Sports Medicine Specialist.

Speaker 2: 0:06

I'm Dr Rob Green, Sports Chiropractor, Coach, Trustee Sidekick. We are Lifetime Endurance Athletes. We are Eager Lab Rats.

Speaker 1: 0:13

We are Maker of Many Mistakes. We are Family-focused sports medicine docs that are balancing family work and fitness and are enjoying the ride While we are sports medicine professionals. This podcast is not part of our professional responsibilities. No doctor, patient or coach-athlete relationship developed this podcast. We have no financial support from any outside resources. The only support we get is from our fantastic wives that sit back and look at us in complete dismay.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Welcome to HubLife. Enjoy the show. Welcome back to HubLife, episode 19. Moose, how you doing, man.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Pretty good Sometimes leaving. We've had some 52-degree mornings, oh, such a nice break. Oh my gosh, the podcast we did about running in heat and we've been kind of focused on dew point. To see a dew point of 45 to 48 is amazing, like Game Changer.

Speaker 2: 1:11

It's amazing. You came in with a flesh wound today.

Speaker 1: 1:16

You know, I learned a valuable lesson when you're running trails, you have to keep your head up or down. You have to keep your head down Wait.

Speaker 2: 1:25

Down. You mean to keep it off the terrain.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Yeah, you have to keep your head off the trail. So yeah, I was running along yesterday and you lose. I mean, we're so lucky to have the Jane River Trail System because it's low impact. You can run long beautiful day, but if you lose concentration for a second you can go down.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Yeah, you can get ugly quickly, man, but it's great for stability.

Speaker 1: 1:51

But if you're there by yourself, you hit the ground and you think, hmm, is anybody else around?

Speaker 2: 1:57

Yeah, that's what I should be there with you. It's a bad training partner when you're not there.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Yeah, but it's all good. I rode today and that first shower always makes you squeal.

Speaker 2: 2:10

That's the worst part about that injury Road rash or any kind of rash Scrubbing the dirt out.

Speaker 1: 2:14

It's all good Moving forward. I'm psyched for the fall, I'm psyched for the cooler weather, I'm psyched for a little bit of run focus, like we've been talking about.

Speaker 2: 2:22

So, yeah, lights up good. Funny, with the really hot weather by late August, my run self-esteem is always low. You're like, oh, I'm getting older, I'm getting slower, it feels like a slog. And then you get that first cool day and you're like, oh, I actually kind of like this. There's the fitness. Yeah, this fitness is actually enjoyable. This is pretty nice. Heat matters for sure. Yeah. So some big racing over the weekend, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 2:44

We got to see a lot of local people race Ironman Maryland. Yeah, I talked to a buddy of mine, tim Brown, last night. He had a good day there Run like it may have gotten a little bit hot, yeah. And then Adam, who was a guest on the show Twithry Twithry, you know we used to go to Richmond Tri Club Press Tri.

Speaker 1: 3:04

Club Press he did his, but the Facebook post that he did his first Ironman like he had a decent day. It looked like Ironman made a decision to shorten the swim. Yeah, tim said that there was bad tides coming in and wind going out, or the opposite, and it would have been an endless pool for weaker swimmers.

Speaker 1: 3:25

And unlike Cork, ireland three or four weeks ago where two people died. They shortened the course to a thousand meters, so those less strong swimmers were psyched because they had a chance of only. Most of the swim times were between 15 and 18 minutes.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Yeah, wow, did they do it ahead of time? Or did they find out? Race morning, do you know? Make race morning, make race morning. Remember we were at Ironman Louisville and they did that to us. We were just, we were sitting in the it's the first time I've been in a race and we were in the corral and it was like 10 minutes before it was going to go off and then the announcer had said that like hey, we're going to delay it by 30 minutes and we're going to redirect the course because we had to go upstream and then down. The current was so, so high, so we so we had to just go down current. It was like a 10 minute swim, 12 minute swim. It was amazing.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Yeah, I took out a buoy knot because I looked up one time you got out in the current to the left and you're going down with the current at your back, yeah, and usually you swim and your head goes up and you see a buoy off in the distance. You think I'm heading that buoy, or my, my next head, up for you.

Speaker 2: 4:30

I mean you're hauling. You know how. I remember that. I don't know if you remember this, but after the race, the race is all over and we're kind of debriefing how it went. I was like Moose man, I'm I'm sorry, man, I must have like cut you off when we were swimming, because we went, we jumped in at the same time and we were sort of shoulder to shoulder and all of a sudden and it was a weird swim because I mean you couldn't see anything Obviously I hit a buoy and I was like man, I must have cut you off. I don't know where you went, sorry about that and I thought maybe we're just on my feet and you're like. That wasn't you, that was the buoy. Like the first time I got to I didn't really see the buoy and all of a sudden you got a bunch of the head and you were gone. I didn't move at all, yeah, so I thought that was me. That's pretty funny.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Awesome. You know they had the men's Ironman world championships in Nice.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:15

Very different. Did you watch the race? I watched the recap.

Speaker 2: 5:18

I watched it. I didn't watch it during it, that's the thing. So you know, I watched the recap of it afterwards, but it just had a different feel. It just seems weird. It's not in Kona. Yeah, it's a different feel, but I think it was a.

Speaker 1: 5:31

I think it looked like a really really challenging course. Yeah, the swim was the same. You know. Matt Marchel, who's a new, not my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my. Mike. Matt Marquette, who's a new pro he was the first guy out of the water.

Speaker 2: 5:46

47 minutes or so there's a big group of them that came out of the water though. Yeah, it was a big group. It was kind of like that's what was at Kona last year, where they it was like they got out together and you're like, wow, that's a big group that's going to be. But you said hard course, the bikes are, but the run is flat, flat and four loops.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Four loops so and that I mean I, you know, seemed like just just just watching the race. There was a lot of crowd support, you know, the whole time time time on the course and you could see people. You know I'm sure that the right ratio could could see people, you know, coming and going. But I think there's something very distinct, and you know this all too well and I know this all too well, when you get on the Queen K and you're thinking I got to go all the down to the energy lab and I'm going to be all by myself, and you go in the energy lab and sometimes you come out, sometimes you don't?

Speaker 1: 6:31

There's something truly distinguishable, distinguishable about the kind of run course. It's just hard.

Speaker 2: 6:39

Yeah, I mean everything everything about that course?

Speaker 1: 6:42

Yeah, not, you know, I don't we? I looked over the results and looked at some of the age groups you know times and it was truly a cyclist course. Yeah, right. So my age group the guy who won our age group was an ex-prose cyclist who, by, by the way, had been banned for EPO or been on an EPO list. Oh, wow, and. But his, his, his cycling time was 30 minutes faster than the number two guy. Oh gosh, 30 minutes, yeah. And the guy who won your age group that then occur off, got banned from professional cycling for doping. Wow.

Speaker 1: 7:20

For for for two full years, and now they're racing age group, and now they're racing age group and and both of those professionals, you know, you know, and they're probably clean, that's fine, but, but, but you're just being nice.

Speaker 2: 7:32

I don't know. You're right, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 7:33

But, but. But. Both of those professional cyclists have a 30,. I'm sure they rode, and they rode perfect, but had a 30 minute advantage over the next person. Yeah, that didn't seem that great.

Speaker 2: 7:46

No, it seems odd, especially if you're you're a former pro, you've been, you've been banned for substances before I don't know. I just it just leaves a poor taste and and I don't know. Yeah, I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time with that, Me too.

Speaker 1: 8:00

So but you know, I don't know if you know, but but, but since the men's race, they've really Ironman's put out a, a, a, a ton of stuff on the women's race, you know coming up. Yeah, I think they're worried that there's not going to be that much public marketing going toward it.

Speaker 2: 8:18

You know, I this is going to, I'm I'm not really all that conflict on that. I, I sort of I'm conflicted to say this out loud because I think it sounds really bad, but I I really wasn't that intrigued to kind of it just looked like another professional race To them. They're all racing. It's a world championship, it's a. It's an everyday race with a bigger title. Right, like, does Lado really like man, he had an incredible race at Kona last year. I mean to do what he did and to be at the front and, you know, hold on a second. So he deserves to win it. He deserves to be an Ironman world champ. Yeah, but at the same time, does he finish? And is he like, damn, I wish this would have been in Kona.

Speaker 2: 8:53

Right, it's, it's got that feel of like it's our promised land. There's just something emptier about that finish. And that's not to be dismissive of those that raised it and that qualified and that did it. It's just and maybe it's just me being old and just not adopting to some of the new things, but to not see you know them going into the energy lab and who's coming out and who's fading and what that bike course was like, and to see the turn on Harvey and just for it to not be in Kona. I wasn't that. I mean, honestly I wasn't that interested in sort of watching the race. I was interested in kind of what the results were and but it just it lost the luster for me. I don't know how about you.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Well, I don't know if you saw Jan Jan's post race interview the next day. The next day he was all about, I mean, and then this was his last professional race and he didn't, he didn't have a good day at all. And he basically just ran and shook hands and high fived and kissed babies. But he said the next day he said it is a mistake not having the men and women race together.

Speaker 1: 9:59

He missed seeing the women out there and the and the bowels on the course and he, he think he thought it was a, he thought it was not the same not having a combined? Men's, and you know, and women's world, world championship.

Speaker 2: 10:12

Yeah, yeah, it just feels. It just feels wrong. It feels I mean I'm sorry to say it it just feels wrong. I mean I'm excited for the women to run and honestly, I'll, I'll, I'll, tune in for the women's race. I want to, I want to see them racing, I want to see the course, I want to see everything that plays out. I'm excited for I know, you know, renee is going to be out there racing.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I know several people that are going to be out to Kona and great for them. That's wonderful. But there's, but there's just something so nostalgic and so spiritual about racing out there and then to have that title and have done it in Kona. You know, I wonder how sort of say I mean, at the end of the day, sam's like, I'm going to be like no, this feels watered down because it's incredible what he did, but there's got to be a part of him that's also like to, to put it to, to finish down a lily drive and finish in Kona. He deserved to have that finish after last year, but it's just it was a bummer man.

Speaker 2: 11:04

It was totally a bummer His bike split for for 436,.

Speaker 1: 11:08

he was talking the next day about his power. Yeah, that's a guy that weighs probably 150, 160.

Speaker 2: 11:15

The power to weight on that big climb. He was close to 400.

Speaker 1: 11:19

Geez For a long, long time.

Speaker 2: 11:21

And that looks like a big climb in in Nice. I mean a big long and then that net down. But there's still some sharp stuff. We're now fast. I didn't. What I didn't see was like the intricacies of it and I don't know that course extremely well.

Speaker 1: 11:33

I would imagine there's some killer descending If you look at the profile of it well, they said that he and Magnus, Matt, Magnus Taylor, who was, who was third on the day, I think after Patrick Lang, knew the course like nobody's missing and he and Magnus had practiced the the sense, because you can you can make up so much talent, people you know, going down as far as cutting the turns.

Speaker 2: 11:56

Yeah, you spoke of Matt. It's funny, brought you accidentally said Matt Marshall. Matt Marshall is a primary care and he's he's a doc for professional cycling teams. I remember, you know, back in the day talking to him. I mean, like man, it's got to be so wild to see these guys and how fast they ride, how fast they can climb. He's like, yeah, that's impressive. You want to see something stupid impressive. Watch them descend Right. He's like it is absolutely insane of how they can descend. So knowing the terrain and right.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Magnus, even with the extreme of putting a dropper post on his saddle. Really so, so, so a dropper post is something you can hit the button and your seat post drops.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Yeah, these have mountain biking, don't they?

Speaker 1: 12:35

Yeah, to put you in a more arrow position.

Speaker 2: 12:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:38

And and and they showed his bike before he had a dropper post and he could drop it down and be down on the seat in a lower position and have a have a lower center of gravity to do some of his hairpin turns.

Speaker 2: 12:51

It's like those guys that like put their chest on their, on their handlebars man, so he could basically I mean you got arrow bars, that thing, and you're so far forward, that's pretty wild man Interesting to see.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Yeah, and, and they swap it next year. What do you think they do? Do you think they keep this? Do you think they keep this revolving men and women every other year at Kona and then at at Nice or a different spot? Do you think Kona stays in the mid? What do you think? What do you think Iron man is? What do you think it looks like in six years from now?

Speaker 1: 13:20

We have your CEO coming right. Yeah, so my, my personal opinion I'm and I'm old school, I get it. I mean I think you go back to a one day racing Kona. You live with the people who can qualify, you make the numbers tolerable for Kona Township, right, and it's hard to qualify now. So I don't know.

Speaker 2: 13:45

That's my most sincere hope, is that's what they would do, and I think there's zero chance that they do that. I think there's zero chance that they do it.

Speaker 1: 13:51

I think this is a.

Speaker 2: 13:52

I think it's a slow play to to unfortunately get it out of there. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:58

And I think, if that happens, then challenge wrote becomes a world championship race.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Man, it's, that's a no brainer. I mean, that's that race.

Speaker 1: 14:07

And typical Iron man race has 2000 people.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:12

That's 7000 people allowed to race. It's sold out in 42 seconds.

Speaker 2: 14:18

Yeah, that's. And that's the thing is, it's such an iconic course, it's such an it's got history, right. You know, they, they, they did that with 70.3. It used to be a clear water, right, and that's a long time ago and that wasn't necessarily. That wasn't a nostalgic place to go, but they were, they were moving 70.3 out, but they moved it, I think, for like good reasons, because I don't think it had the draw. It sort of was just a local, you know world championship draft.

Speaker 2: 14:46

Kona is truly an international race, right. So when they separate the 70.3s, there's the European year and there's US here and European year and you sort of you get some draw internationally but you really sort of cater to that like that region of the globe. But Kona was truly you went there as first race I think I've ever been to. It was like a truly international race. It's challenging for everybody to get to. But but to be there and to have just I mean the, I mean marking, I mean the hill, I mean it's just amazing. I don't know. I hate for it to see. I'm even a loss of words as I think about it now. It's just, maybe, maybe it's the, maybe it's the dinosaur in me, but I just I would love to see them go back to. I don't think they ever will and I think that you know the challenges are going to try to put it on the same weekend and I think it ends up moving out of there. I hope I'm wrong, but so you know.

Speaker 1: 15:40

I think it'd be interesting too for the change in the pros with the new PTO races that have bigger purses, right? I mean, do the guys focus on every other year at Kona? Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 15:55

You know the what, if I was going to at least pick out one. One good thing is you had, like the Marine of Van Honenacker's. You had, you know, the big guys that just didn't race well in the heat. That deserved to be. I mean, they were amongst the best but the heat was challenging. So like that part is sort of nice to wear, like like a Scott Molina right, one of the old. I mean he, I think he won Kona once, but he, I mean the Terminator, he's an incredibly, I mean he's an icon, he's one of the major four and he never performed well in Kona because of the heat. So it opens up some other, you know, elite level, top tier athletes, the ability to to get a world championship and not be affected by that heat. So that part's nice. I mean, maybe there is, maybe there is a middle ground here. But I was just the men's race, I was just sort of like I wasn't it. It sort of saddened me a little bit too, because then, even as I watched the highlights, it just was another race.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Yeah, yeah, I watched almost the whole thing because I thought it means amazing to watch these guys, and the run did get very, very hot.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Yeah, I did it really.

Speaker 1: 17:01

Yeah, the run got really really hot.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Well, at least they got suffered on the little bit of the surface of the sun. Yeah, exactly In homage to Kona. All right, I had an idea. Let's maybe dive into you and see where it goes.

Speaker 2: 17:20

But you know, our last podcast we were talking about all things running. I thought it'd be a good idea if we just had a conversation about run form and specifically what I'm kind of thinking about. Where we go with this is is run form demystified? Right? I don't in clinic, I mean, I do video, gay analysis, we do a lot of re-aboutative and whether it's for injury or efficiency, and there's just to me so much like misconceptions out there and I think people tend to even over complicated or they take one really sort of nugget of what they think is a fact and they've revolved their world around it. So maybe in this podcast, if we talk about run form and break it down in a really kind of understandable way, so that way maybe by the end of this we've had a good conversation, but you somebody can leave it with like, oh okay, well, that boy, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 18:10

What's the practical stuff that you can know to make you a better runner, to make you understand that, like you're running, there's not this cookie cutter approach to running right, there's not like you can't look up run form, copy a run form and have it be perfect for you, but there are some fundamental things that that, if you want to run efficiently, that I think are very, very important. So, you know, my thought is like a run form demystified, and so I mean I'll leave it to you after this, but my thought is we start with, kind of like what are some of the basic terms you know when we're talking about this, so we don't we don't kind of make it too confusing and then we get into you know what are some of the key things that you need to be able to do and what are the key movements you need to be able to have, and what are some of the dysfunctions that we see and what to do to correct them. But what do you think, man, what are your thoughts when you think of run form demystified?

Speaker 1: 19:05

So I think I think probably one of the most common reasons we see people are clinics is either poor training volume or poor training technique, lack of efficiency.

Speaker 2: 19:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:19

Right, and so number number one. I think one of the leading causes of injury and we all hate injury is running form. Yeah, second thing part of that running form is there are a lot of Google coaches out there that want to force you into a box.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:43

A box may not fit your running style, your training, just the way you are, so it leads you down the bad path. Yeah Right, and then the third thing is one of the most important things of running is efficiency.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:57

If you're trying to be an elite level runner, you're trying to qualify for Boston trying to do these things. If you're more efficient, you're faster.

Speaker 2: 20:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:05

At the same effort, right? So I think run form is key yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:09

I mean, like you said, it's a win-win, whether you're looking to reduce repetitive strain injuries or whether you're looking to perform better and who's not looking to do both. But it's not this give or take, it's both of them Right. So there's really sort of there's no argument to not have it be something that's of importance, whether you're introducing running to your life for the first time, or you're looking to come back to, or you're looking to compete at a very high level. And you know, something you said that you like to point out too, is is like there are a lot of injuries that we see from like really bad form. I've seen some people that have formed, though that I've looked at and been like how are you not injured? And they're not injured. So it does play a role, and what role it plays is is that's also a little bit dirty as far as like, like I said, I've seen some people that you know you're, like you shouldn't be hurt and somehow they're not.

Speaker 2: 21:02

I will tell you, too, that, like, like you said, form has a big role in in you know, a lot of wear and tear that happens to your body, but as soon as that creates a problem, well, guess what? Your brain doesn't like pain, so it's going to now. It's now going to do something else faulty as well. So every time you're injured and you you really get back to form, it's going to mess with your form. So that's a lot of times we move over.

Speaker 2: 21:25

Doing rehab is like we got. We got to take a look at it because, even if it was good from before, your body has learned some new movement patterns. So, yeah, it'd be kind of fun to get into this and and maybe hopefully leave it in a way that doesn't leave people confused. Because I think if, like you said, you play Google doc and you go out and you want to get better, you're like, hey, I know, efficiency is important and you go down that rabbit hole, you're going to see so much contradicting information. You're going to see some things that are just like I look at them and don't don't do that Right. So I don't know where they came up with that from. So it's got to be frustrating. It's got to be really frustrating to somebody who is actually wanting to do this, because there's just there's a lot of info out there that that that's hard to see through.

Speaker 1: 22:09

So the the ideal thing would be for everybody to come in to hub and have a gate analysis, but that's not practical, no right? So when you, with your gate analysis, when you look at run form, can you break it down into simple terms we can move forward with?

Speaker 2: 22:27

Yeah, you know, and that's that's part of the key is like, how do you keep it really simple If we're going to, let's get some like basic terms, so maybe hopefully we're on the same page. You're, when you're running right, you're either connected to the ground one foot is connected to the ground or or you're not connected to the ground, right. So that means, like the foot is actually in stance, so it's on the ground, or it's towed off and now you're in that swing phase. So so you're either in stance phase, where the foot is connected to the ground, or you're in swing phase, when the foot is left the ground.

Speaker 2: 22:59

So those sort of two key phases, right, and there's if that makes sense, then there's either there's the foot strike, when the foot's going from the swing phase, when it's in the air, to making contact, to then the back end of it, when there's a tow off, when it's leaving the stance phase, and it's going into the swing phase. So you're either connected to the ground or you're not connected to the ground, um, and there's those transition points. And then there's that point in the middle that we call mid stance or mid swing, where, where both thighs are back up underneath you, so, um, that's how we usually like to start to at least get that down. You're either on the ground or you're not on the ground.

Speaker 1: 23:36

Hopefully less on the ground.

Speaker 2: 23:37

The more time you can spend in the air right. Less time, yeah, yeah, not, not shin. First phase, first of the trails.

Speaker 1: 23:42

Not shin. First phase first yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Part of efficiency is being vertical, not horizontal.

Speaker 1: 23:46

Yeah, you spend some time on the ground. So your two phases the first phase is stance phase and you and you define that by the foot being on the ground.

Speaker 2: 23:55

I start. Yep, it has the initial contact. Yeah, it starts, it's on the ground and it's stance phase all the way through until that foot leaves the ground, great, so it's.

Speaker 1: 24:04

And then swing phase is when the foot's not connected. So you have two simple phases defined by foot contact. Foot contact Easy enough. Okay, and then, as you look at the stance phase, if we're going to subdivide that more, what are the key subdivisions of when your foot strikes the ground to the point where it goes into swing phase?

Speaker 2: 24:28

So there's that initial contact, okay.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Right, so your initial contact.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Initial contact Right. And then you have the mid stance and that's after you've made contact, when the other leg, the opposite leg, is now swinging back through, when both thighs like if you think about your thighs, your upper part of your legs, when they're back even with each other, that's the mid stance. And then there's the toe off, when the foot is then leaving the ground on the back end. So if you think about it, you're making contact, then your body is coming back into neutral. Both legs are back up underneath you One is connected, the other one is not, but they're both underneath you and then there's a toe off, where the, where that plant leg is then leaving the ground to enter into that next phase, which is is a swing phase, so that's the stance phase Yep.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Swing phase also has subdivisions.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Yeah, that's pretty much the same. We make it really simple. There's the toe off. You're transitioning from stance to swing. So you're towing off, you're leaving the ground. Then there's that mid swing where that leg is not connected to the ground but that thigh is coming back, even with the other thigh Right. Remember, there's mid stance and this is also now going to be called mid swing. Both thighs are even, One is connected to the ground and one is not Right. And then there's the contact phase, where the leg is going from that swing phase and then initiating that strike phase which introduces right. So it's that transition.

Speaker 1: 25:47

Okay, so that's. That's super easy to understand things. So are there? Are there any, any any super specific points we should focus on as far as mistakes or efficiency points in any specific points along that run cycle.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Yeah. So that's a great question here's if we're going to clump something up just easily when you're in stance phase. Right, that to me is there's not any technique. You're in stance phase, the leg is connected to the ground. Now it has to do with your musculoskeletal will maybe get into some strength and single leg balance and support. Right, that's not technique. So we're not drilling stance phase. Right, we'll talk about stance phase being. You know what's your muscle balance like, what's your strength and stability like, and then the drills really come in when the toe leaves the ground and then it goes into the swing phase. So most of the drilling is really the swing phase, where the biomechanics and how, what your, what your muscle and your, your strength and balance is like is during the stance phase.

Speaker 1: 26:57

Yeah, so I mean I see people in my clinic almost every day who have a difficult time doing a single leg stand. So there's.

Speaker 2: 27:08

There's the rare person that comes in that can that, can do that. It's amazing.

Speaker 1: 27:11

Yeah, it's you. Tell them to stand on one foot.

Speaker 2: 27:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:15

Barefoot. You tell them to stand on one foot and to watch their foot collapse in, or their, their perineals, the tendons around the ankles fire to try to keep them balanced yeah. To watch their hip wobble, yeah, it's amazing. And to think about you cycle through that thousands and thousands of time on a five, five KK run. That repetitive load is going to lead to injury.

Speaker 2: 27:42

And and and that's with them fresh, Right, that's with them fresh, not even fatigued, and they can't even do it Right. And then, if you really want to like, escalate even more, have them do a little tiny mini squat down to that 40 degree knee flexion about where they are, just a button below it and there is zero ability to control it, practically in most people. And you know we'll talk about what that. You know, maybe, when we get to the back end of that, what that means, because that's not just balanced right. There's a lot of different things happening and and there's a lot of things that you got to do to retrain that. And it starts with the simple things, not the complex things.

Speaker 2: 28:18

We have people that you know come in and it's one of the simple, easy scans that we'll do A single stance. Can you hold that for 10 seconds? You have relatively good control. Can you balance on your arches of your feet Nutrally? And almost really very few people can. And then those people can. If you haven't do a single squat, they really lose control after that and we're like don't go home and practice this, Right. There's some other things that there's some prerequisites to be able to get there, but that is a. You know, if you, if you're listening to this and if you're a car, don't, don't, right, Wait till you're standing but, and do it in front of a mirror so you can watch. Don't go by what you feel you're doing. Watch yourself in the mirror. Try to stand on one leg and put a soft bend in your knee and try to do that for 10 seconds.

Speaker 1: 28:58

Watch what happens and you think it's more important to watch yourself in the mirror from the front or the side.

Speaker 2: 29:04

Well, I would watch yourself. I would Well. So when we look at the evaluation, we look from everything, but I would watch yourself from the front, just for the fact that, like, if you turn your head left and right, you're also going to throw off your equilibrium. So don't make it any harder. You know, set yourself up for success. Can you do it? Right in front of you, right? And most people really struggle with that. And that's a series Like, when you run, it's three times your body weight on one single leg, 80 to 90 times a minute, right, Do that math for an hour and then you know that that noise is being absorbed by a lot of different tissues. Somebody's going to make up for it, right, you're not falling over, unless you're running trails and you fall over. So that's, that's a general scan that we will look at, and then there's a lot behind that to help people get that better. But that's a great thing to bring up, because a lot of people struggle with that.

Speaker 1: 29:50

I think there's another important point about the mid stance phase. One, it's very complex, right. And two, if you've done longer races or if you volunteered longer races and you're on the back side the back 25% of those races look at the stance phase of some of these people.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Oh man.

Speaker 1: 30:10

It is unbelievable how they collapse in, they collapse out and their stance phase becomes much longer, that their ground contact time with their foot becomes much longer yeah, so if you want to accentuate that point, go watch the last 10K marathon or go run a marathon and see what people look like on the back side.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Well, here's, here's a right. Everything is think about. When somebody's running a marathon or somebody's doing an Ironman, any hitch in the giddy up you see early is magnified at the end. I think a great fatigue Because of, well, because of, yeah, because of fatigue and altered mechanics, right, and so so those, those flaws, become even more exposed. So if you have good form, even as you get fatigued, if you've paced yourself well, you can still have be more mindful of your good form. But when you've got flaws in the system and you get that fatigue, those are like those hitches in the giddy up become completely magnified.

Speaker 2: 31:08

A great example and you can probably find this quickly on YouTube is you know, I love the guy, I think he's very charismatic and great to listen to. I don't know if he's the great to like always get the best tips from, but his Lionel Sanders, right, lionel's like stiff on one side, he's a collapse around the other side and he runs with this clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk, rigid. He runs exceptionally fast In a 70.3,. He can usually sort of hide that mechanical flaw. In an Ironman he really can't. So if you watch his last 5K of any marathon that he's running, it is tremendously different. Right, that little hitch in the giddy up, that's a little well, what, what, what what? In the beginning it doesn't seem that big of a deal. His little stiff leg is like this huge, magnified he's a great example of that. And so that's going to catch up with you. And now does that break you down? Potentially, yeah, it's going to break down. Depends on how durable you are and how much your body can. Does it mean you're going to get injured? Well, right, the, the percentage goes up, but he's leaking out energy, right, he's leaking out energy with that. So, yeah, those, those things get magnified.

Speaker 2: 32:09

And single leg balances it's going to be a big word, but really it's kind of summed up easily is is a stability motor control dysfunction right? And stability motor control dysfunction is like how well your brain is processing everything. So we kind of just lump it into smart brain, dumb muscles right, your brain isn't operating those muscles in a in a way that's efficient for it. Now, there's a lot that goes into that, a lot of prerequisites. Number one do you have pain? If there's pain, stability motor controls altered, no matter what, right. So once you get to pain and here's the thing you may not feel the pain. But if your body is working around pain, it's going to work around it.

Speaker 2: 32:48

The next one in line after that and the priority these are in level of priority is what's your mobility right? If you're, if your hip flexors to tonic relative to your hip extensors by default there's some cool tests that you know maybe we can talk about at some point of ways to test this Then that that leg is compromised right? It's the stability motor control. In fact, I'll tell you, the test that you do to test this out when you get home is called an inline hold and you go down in one knee, so you put your right knee down and you put your right foot, so it's it's pointed, so the toes are pointed away, so your toes aren't locked in, so your leg is resting in it and you're you're in this half kneeling position on your right side. You put your left foot directly in front of that right thigh. So if you bring your left foot over and your left knee is just bent at 90 degrees, so the foot's right underneath the knee, and so you're in this half kneeling position, but you're in an inline position Right, and if you just kneel there and don't tighten your core, don't, don't squeeze your glue. Don't come up with compensations to try to hold that position. And can you hold that position for a minute without falling over or losing? Does it look noisy? And that's a great way to see how well your hip is firing relative to your core.

Speaker 2: 34:03

And stability, and stability Right. So the motor control dysfunction is exposed there, a ton. We have a ton of people who can do it on one side and then the other side they can't even hold it at all. A lot of times they can't do it on either side. Um, and that is smart brain, dumb muscle. So there's a lot behind it. So, if you see it, don't just try to go and strengthen one single lie. Don't put fitness on dysfunction. Um, and maybe by the time we you dive into this, maybe we'll come up with some solutions you can do Walk that, test, test, test, test one more time.

Speaker 1: 34:34

So you are kneeling on one knee one knee. Your front leg should be lined up with your back, your back leg right in front of that thigh Right.

Speaker 2: 34:47

So it's in one line, like imagine you're on a yellow line on a street.

Speaker 1: 34:51

So your shin that's on the ground with your toe pointing behind you should be lined up with your knee that is flexed. That what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 34:59

Yeah, if you go like imagine, imagine a street line, like a yellow or white line, don't go in the yellow line, uh, that'll get you disqualified. Um so yeah, yeah. So you're on that line with your downside knee and then your opposite foot comes over and is also in on that line, right, but it's, it's. So you're kind of like in this half kneeling, all 90 degree angles, so it's just a half kneeling position.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Okay. So we beat kind of mid stance phase, yeah, right. So there's a lot of stuff out there on foot strike. I mean, a lot of shoe companies are based on specific foot strike. Right. Is there an ideal foot strike?

Speaker 2: 35:42

So you know, as you ask, that, let's, let's, maybe let me take one step backwards, if that's okay. Yep, basic key elements, and foot strike is going to be a major one. The first thing we look at is posture. We want you to be in a neutral posture.

Speaker 1: 35:58

What's that mean?

Speaker 2: 36:00

Let me just go through the top, maybe three things that we're going to look at. So posture, so maybe let's start with posture, then we'll look at foot strike and then we're going to look at that swing phase or that thigh drive. So I think those are maybe the three key things that we can look at If we're going to look at being a more efficient runner. We can all have different styles, but can we have just some core, fundamental things Before we even get into foot strike? Are you in a neutral position? I see this even instructed poorly by qualified people, because what is neutral posture? So neutral posture means like are my ears on top of my shoulders, on top of my hips, on top of my knees, on top of my ankle? Am I in a nice, good, relaxed alignment? So think about standing like those old school movies where they would, for etiquette, they'd put a book on top of your head and have you walk around so your shoulder blades are back.

Speaker 1: 36:54

You're standing tall.

Speaker 2: 36:56

But relaxed. So as soon as we say posture, and even as we say this, if you listen to it, what does everybody do? They sit up straight and they almost always go into extension. So you're just sort of lengthening and you're going tall. Yeah, so think about that book on top of your head and you're going tall, your shoulders are down and relaxed away from the ears, so you're not in that forward slump posture position, you're not leaning in your low back and you're in extension or you're not like flexed over and slumped, you're just going tall and relaxed. And then so that way your ear is on top of your shoulder and your shoulder is on top of your hip and your hip's on top of your knee and your knee is on top of your ankle and it's sort of relaxed way. And if you want to know how to get there, like I said, that book or pretend somebody's pulling a string on the top of your head right and just sort of lengthen up and then shake it out and relax More times than that.

Speaker 2: 37:39

It cleans up and we can go into more in depth on how we do that. We do that a lot, a lot of times, even that you got to kind of cue. Scap of the retraction, or kind of getting shoulders down, but just nice relaxed. That's a good neutral position. So scap of the retraction is what.

Speaker 2: 37:54

It's kind of thinking about pulling your shoulders where he's backing down. So think about like people, like imagine yourself at a computer right now. Your shoulders are forward. Lots of times they go up and forward, so you want them in a more relaxed kind of backing down.

Speaker 1: 38:04

So your mom comes by and slap you on the head and says sit up straight. Yeah, yeah yeah, so you sit up straight and then you relax a little bit.

Speaker 2: 38:10

Think about I've heard the term, we use it often too what shoulders are? Ear poison. So keep the shoulders away from the ears. Right Ears are shoulder poison. Go the opposite way. Just backing down, so just nice and relaxed. So all too many times people their shoulders are up and they're forward, stress and traps and things like that.

Speaker 2: 38:29

But nice, good, neutral posture. Now if we understand that that's neutral posture with some of the nuances we can get into, that's straight up and down. But when we run we actually run with a forward lean. So if you lean, if you run with a forward lean, that means you're gonna lean forward at the ankles and your alignment should stay stacked but that line. So if you think about like a broomstick, if you put a broomstick directly up 90 degrees from the floor, it's your standing stationary. And if you're gonna start to run, now imagine just sort of moving that broomstick a little bit far, a little bit forward, as it starts to fall off, and that's alignment, that's starting to go forward. This is a great drill we do all the time. Start with that position until you start. You're forced to take that first step and when you take that first step, fall into a jog, but don't lose that forward alignment that you've got. And if you think about it, yep, we're gonna say You've gotta practice that.

Speaker 1: 39:21

You gotta, oh man, you gotta it's. You know cause? It's not. It doesn't feel normal if you're not, you know, not used to it, and it feels a little bit abnormal leaning forward like that. You have to practice that.

Speaker 2: 39:37

You've gotta practice it and even when you gotta go with it, you gotta you know it's easier to keep it than it is to get it you gotta just kind of keep it in the mix, because as you go forward and then we were chatting about this not too long ago as you go forward, the natural movement. So now when you take that first step, the goal is to keep your forward lean, that posh that we talked about. Right, you're leaning from the ankles, but your alignment, instead of being directly perpendicular, there's a slight forward lean and you should almost I've heard it described and I think it's beautiful you should feel like somebody's pulling your heart to the finish line, right, cause you're leading by your heart. Even when we do this test or, excuse me, if you're running and you, you notice you do this almost always the chest comes up and we run quote unquote tall, run, tall. I've heard this all the time run tall, like, well, yeah, run tall, but not the tall that you're thinking, because if you look at it, your lower half is still in that forward lean, but now there's a slight break in your waist because you're trying to get your torso perpendicular. That's not neutral alignment If you're still in that 90 degree mark where your torso is up, then you're not in that forward lean, and triathletes are notorious for doing it right. It's basically fatigue, fatigue, coming off the bike right. And then we think of like, hey, run tall and be like no man, run with a forward lean, run with your heart leading the way, do that lift off test.

Speaker 2: 40:55

And even after we do that lift off test in clinic or that lift off drill or step off drill, as soon as they get going, the feel, the tension in their low back, they're running in their low back and by default, when you do that, you're putting more of a bias in your low back. If you're putting more of a bias in a low back what you'll come to find out as we get into kind of what muscles are and what they're doing you're blocking your glutes from working right and your glutes don't work as well and you run in your low back. Now one of the problems is you even have the prerequisite. Do you have the hip extension to be able to do it? So we'll go down a rabbit hole a little bit with that, but at the end of the day it starts with posture. So if you're running forward and you have that, excuse me, that upright posture. You're what I think of as like behind your gate already.

Speaker 2: 41:39

So when you get into foot strike, you're asking about foot strike. If you are not in a good forward lean, your foot strike is. It's the wrong order. So then, because everybody does what you had asked is immediately right, we go into foot strike and here comes the foot strike debate and hopefully, when we get into that, maybe we'll put that to rest a little bit. But it starts with that posture and that neutral alignment and that forward lean as opposed to running tall or proud chest, and those who haven't done it feel like they're running like slouchy McGee, right. But when you get used to it it also feels freer. It's a controlled fall forward. You feel the tension come out of your back. You start to feel that you're just sort of like the run gate feels looser. It's not. This tight posture is nice and relaxed. So start with posture man.

Speaker 1: 42:26

It's. I do a lot of my runs early, early and then warm with a headlight and you got to really think about leaning forward because, you're just self-protection. When it's dark, you don't want to lean forward. You want to be back a little bit because you don't want to fall again.

Speaker 2: 42:46

And think about it. The subconscious brain is brilliant, it's hedging its bets and I wouldn't say don't work on your forward lean and the dark, right, if you're struggling with form, don't do your drills in the dark, because it's kind of them. The same thing happens on a treadmill. A treadmill happens a decent amount too, and why? Because the brain sort of you're striding out and it sees objects in front that like if it hits it's going to fall off. So now, gates not all that different on a treadmill. People tend to think that they're crazy different. But if you're working on a forward lean, you're trying to do that drill. A treadmill in the dark is not a way to do it.

Speaker 1: 43:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:21

And it goes to show you that you're just trying to. You're hedging your bets a little bit. It's not efficient, but it's also protective, yeah. So yeah, don't do it in the dark, but that's posture, right. So think about being upright and then just a forward lean and try to fall forward. Just try to on your next run, if you're going to work on posture for the first one, think about somebody's pulling a string from your heart to the finish line, right, and you'll notice how many times that you start to just sort of sink back.

Speaker 2: 43:44

I've had a video and maybe we can sort of post it. The differences between good posture and bad posture are crazy subtle. It's so, so subtle. A good kind of practicing that we use in clinic now I'm thinking about it too is, if you lean forward at the ankles just a little bit, not to fall forward yet as you lean forward, just so you're kind of like on the edge of what you can hold, and then just sort of lean back a little bit and feel that in your low back and then lean forward a little bit and feel that and when I say a little bit, I mean like we're talking, like you know a half a centimeter, yeah, it's a half a centimeter, and you'll feel the difference from coming in your low back, from the pressure being in your low back, to then being freer.

Speaker 2: 44:25

So that way you're more in that neutral alignment. And then, when you're in that neutral alignment, now we start to look at foot strike. Right, what are you gonna do with your foot strike? But all things should start with posture. Cool, that's great. Yeah, any thoughts? I'm gonna get soap boxy on this crap. Man, I'm sorry. I get super excited about talking about gait.

Speaker 1: 44:46

You know we were looking at efficiency right, so I think that's key.

Speaker 2: 44:50

Yeah, and then foot strike. Here's my. I'll say this and then I'll get your thoughts. As I say because I don't know if we've ever really talked a lot about it Foot strike is annoying, right, foot strike is crazy annoying. You hear so many different people's philosophies. You hear different people like instructing something that they've been taught and they were a heel striker and they're a forefoot striker and now they're a flat foot striker and I really don't like them to look at it like that. And it's not because where the foot lands isn't important, it's because you're missing, I think, what a really big key component is.

Speaker 2: 45:29

And instead of thinking foot strike, we think shin angle right, what's your shin angle? And that shin is like, let's think it's the bone between your knee and your ankle right. So that bone, your tibia, we're gonna. Tibia is the main bone, fibia is the stabilizing bone, but that lower leg bone you can try this trick If you got that same broomstick right. Here's a good trick to do Imagine the bottom part of that broom is the ankle and the top part of that broomstick is the knee. And if I'm trying to go in front of me and if I sort of throw that broomstick with the ankle portion out in front and the knee portion behind, and I throw it into the ground. Which way is it gonna go? It's gonna go backwards. So now, when people overstride, they tend to be really big, big, heavy heel strikers. I'm not saying be a heel striker, but what I'm saying is that, like heels and you're gonna come to find out most people are heel strikers and it can be a really good thing with it. It's that shin angle, so your lower leg. When you strike the ground, you want that lower leg to be at least perpendicular to the ground, and better runners it's inverted right, so the ankle is actually behind the knee. Angle forward. It's angle forward. So it's to me it's a timing issue. So are you because we think of like running forward, the more that we can take a stride, the faster we can go.

Speaker 2: 46:46

At some point we overstride and now our heels landing out in front of us and it's a big, big, heavy heel strike. And that heel. Imagine that heel being in front of that knee. Imagine that bottom part of the broom being in front of the, the top part of the broom. Well, it's gonna have backward forces. Those are the brakes. Now you're gonna hit that. That's gonna transfer directly up into your knee, it's gonna transfer up into your hip, it's gonna compress into your low spine. There's lots of compression with it. And, yes, you're a heel striker and that's not good. We don't want you to be a heel striker, but those are big breaking forces. Your outside of your shin has to try to slow that down. Your joints are under tremendous amount of compression and you're grossly inefficient. So that's a bad heel strike. Now, imagine if you pulled back a little bit sooner and by the time you made contact that shin was vertical. Well, imagine that broom, sort of you, sort of time it, and you swing it back as you're thrown into the ground. It's gonna sort of fall and pop forward. That's what you want. You want that shin to be vertical, if not inverted.

Speaker 2: 47:47

Now, whatever pace you're doing whether you're running marathon pace, half marathon pace, slow, long distance, whether you're running an all out one mile time trial let the foot do what it naturally does. Get the hell out of the way. Don't concentrate on where the foot works. Let your foot do what it naturally does. Now, there's some caveats to that. To downline maybe, well, and we can talk about some scenarios that are problematic. I can give you two professional athletes that are good examples of this. But let the foot do what it naturally does. When you run slow, you're more of a heel striker. As you go more to tempo and above, it starts to naturally become a midfoot striker. If you start to run, let's say, two mile time trial, and below, you start to become more of an exclusive of a foot, a forefoot striker. Your body's naturally blending, the way it was designed, but your shin is staying the same at all times. So why? Because you don't want to break those forces.

Speaker 2: 48:37

When it comes down to it, start with good posture and then, when you strike, make sure your foot, your shin, is at least 90 degrees, if not the knee out in front of the foot. Yeah, and that is so crazy important. Now, what your foot naturally does, I think more times than not usually correct, with some little kind of maybe some asterisks in there. Let your foot do what it naturally does, and some people a little bit more midfoot, some people are a little bit more heel strike, even the ones that are four foot. We'll talk about why that's not a brilliant idea. But yeah, think shin angle, let everything else go. Throw the foot strike debate out the window. Most people are actually heel strikers, but not the heel striker that you think that they are. It's just that heel strike. It's such a bad rap because when the heel is out in front of the knee, the heel strike is huge. Now take that same person.

Speaker 1: 49:31

Huge meaning. What?

Speaker 2: 49:32

Meaning that, like the like, you can see the heel like it looked right to the naked eye. You're like, oh, you're a heel striker. Be like, yeah, you're like way behind your gate, and that heel strike is just hot and heavy. Now last thing, and to see what you sort of think but that heel striker I see this way more than not that heel striker and somebody cause it's so bad, that's what I mean. It's so bad that, like anybody who you don't even have to have awareness of running, You're like, wow, that's really bad, you should not be a heel striker. I hear heel striking is horrible.

Speaker 2: 50:04

They go for real and then they try to become a four foot striker. Well, now you're landing the forefoot, You're still breaking all the forces. You're just transferring it from your joints now to more soft tissue. Shin angle has not changed. Your shin angle has not changed. Your brakes are inefficient, the forces are high. And now you've changed your foot strike and you're just training who's getting overloaded more than they're designed to get overloaded. And now you're a mid foot striker and everything is great. But then you wonder why you develop Achilles tendonopathy, right? Or you wonder why another injury happens.

Speaker 2: 50:36

Because, you're, yeah, totally man, and it has a lot to do with that shin angle. And you see everybody go into foot strike and then they change their foot strike and it's still in the same crappy position, just a different load to it. So throw the foot strike out and start looking at your shin angle and the best camera you got is in your pocket right now. Right, the best cameras out there are in your pocket. So, if you don't know, have somebody just videotape you and just slow it down. And when you have contact right, we talked about when there's contact as soon as the foot makes contact with the ground, that is your contact point. Where's the shin? And the shin should be vertical or better.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Yeah, yeah, totally, that's great. I think that I agree with you on the foot strike. I don't think. I think it's so variable for everybody.

Speaker 2: 51:25

Oh man.

Speaker 1: 51:26

Most runners are focused on it and they want to buy shoes based on it, and I don't think it's. I mean it's important but it's not. I would not put it in the top 10.

Speaker 2: 51:37

No, my favorite and this is outdated now but you and I will remember. So Newtons were huge. Right, four foot lugs, four foot lugs. And, honestly, buying shoes is boring. I buy the same shoes every single time. I usually try to find the last year's month so I can get a little more of a discount. And there's shoes that come in and they're bright and they're like fun and I'm like man, I want a pair of those. Right, but their whole premise is essentially flawed, right, so they're, and you don't see them as much anymore. Why? Because it's like, sort of like I don't get into the vortex of it, but it's sort of like Hoka. Whereas these fad shoes come in, they have about a seven year shelf life, 10 year shelf life and then it's onto the next fad.

Speaker 2: 52:15

But Newtons had those four foot lugs and they promoted and were trying to train people into four foot running. Right, and their number one sponsored athlete that like live and die by was Crowey, craig Alexander. And Crowey is a beautiful runner man, I mean him and Miranda Carfrae. You'd watch them run and you were like that's just a different sport. They're doing a different sport than I'm doing because they're beautiful runners. And Crowey was at his peak when he was winning multiple Ironmans. And if you do a video game analysis of him and there's plenty to go to YouTube watch it right, watch his shin angle when he's hitting. Watch his shin angle, see where it is.

Speaker 2: 52:53

What makes contact? First, crowey's a heel striker right and he's sponsored by Newton and they're promoting four foot striking and that's all the things you should do. Look at Crowey, run like Crowey and be like so. I used to love that in clinic because everybody was like go ahead and run a Newton. If you watch Crowey's running Newton, but he's not running on the four foot lugs, he's a slight heel striker.

Speaker 2: 53:14

Why? Because when you run an Ironman marathon, that pace, when you let your foot do what it naturally does is a blend of soft tissue and a blend of joint right. It's not the Brownlee brothers who are running all four foot, who are notoriously injured all the time. You're not sustainable if you wanna go that distance. So there's a lot of things that are out there and a lot of things that are promoted, and I used to love that one because it was right there for everybody to see. They were like no, like, where is this? If you want it, I would get a daily trainer. That's better. But model Crowey yes, crowey's a heel striker and Crowey's a beautiful heel striker.

Speaker 1: 53:51

Right, right. So the second example I'd be interested to hear your input are the new carbon plated super shoes. Oh, yeah. They give you and we both we run in them.

Speaker 2: 54:06

We've raced in them.

Speaker 1: 54:08

Do you have to be a specific midfoot strike person to get maximum benefit from it, because the carbon plate in my understanding is relatively midfoot to heel, correct?

Speaker 2: 54:22

So, yeah, let's think about it Like, if you're on, if you are running the way we talked about with that big heavy heel strike and you're overstriding, right, so you're overstriding means that your foot is too far out in front and your heel is hitting the foot, the heel is hitting you're blocking, you're not getting the elastic, you're not getting the recoil of that and the standing Of that Recoil, of that is gonna be backwards, that carbon recoil I don't even think you're getting the recoil.

Speaker 2: 54:45

You're deadening it. So you're hitting on the back end of it and you're not even. But if you got it, that's the time, that part I don't know. But I would say you're not utilizing the benefits of the shoe. I don't know that it's working against you, but I am really firm on saying you're not getting the proposed benefit of what that is, because you're hitting and it's sort of like if you take your hand and you put it on top of a table and you just pull one finger back and you let it go. It's that elastic recoil. Well, you're getting more of that spring back from the shoe and you're not getting it when you overstride.

Speaker 2: 55:18

Now, if you run like Crowe did and had that slight heel strike which if you look at a slight heel strike, slow motion, that it is barely touching first, so you would sort of land on that outer side of the foot which if you look at it it looks like a midfoot strike. But if I were gonna look at it and classify it, I'd still call that a heel strike because you're touching the heel first. He would still benefit because you're rolling into it. You're rolling from your outer arch into your neutral foot and then coming back off on your outer arch, so that would give you the elastic recoil. So that's again.

Speaker 2: 55:52

If you got your shin vertical, you should be able to maximize the shoe. Let your foot do what it naturally does and let the shoe do what it's designed to do and give you that free energy return. But your job is to get the shin in the proper angle and let the foot do its job. Don't try to correct the foot and your mechanics. Everybody's mechanics a little bit different. Some people got more of a various like more of a inward tilt. Some people have more of an outward tilt.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Everything is related.

Speaker 2: 56:20

Some people have inter-orientation or tibia, they're lower legs. Some people have torsional stuff.

Speaker 1: 56:26

So hip rotation, all that stuff matters Everything.

Speaker 2: 56:30

So let your body do its thing Right. We had talked about Lionel Sanders. He's because I'm a geek with this stuff and I love sort of looking at it. He's got a flat tire on one side, he's got an over inflated tire on one side. It's the way I sort of look at it. He sort of collapses on one side and he stays on his supinated, he stays on his outer arch on the other side, and better runners tend to run on the outer part of their feet because the ankle's more locked out. So that's why, landing on that sort of like lateral aspect of your foot, that supinated position which a lot of times touch your heel, first, the outside part the outside part.

Speaker 2: 57:09

Here's the thing that maybe we should have done earlier is if you think about your foot like a tripod, right, so you do heel and you do the inner part of your ball, all your foot, your outer part of your ball, of your foot, and those are three points of contact.

Speaker 1: 57:24

Okay, so the heel is in the back.

Speaker 2: 57:25

Heels in the back, two points of contact in the front and the outside of the ball. The foot, the inside ball of the foot, that's okay, great. That's what we call your tripod. You've got three arches of the foot. They're in between each of those three tripods. As an arch not just the one along the inside part, I think, of a midfoot is if you make contact at the same time of the heel and the outer ball of the foot at the exact same time, that's flat foot.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Right Heel strike is just a fraction before you make contact with that front of that tripod. You only make contact with the back of the tripod first, heel first. So if you were to slow down a video and you see that heel hit just even a fraction of a second first, that's me heel striking. If you make contact with those two tripods at the exact same time, that's a midfoot, a midfoot and then a forefoot. Is if you land on those front, two tripods first. So it's sort of that way we define what a heel strike is and it isn't. So it's a real front and I mean, I do this for a living, you just for a living. I've got to have slow motion to see it. It's not an eyeball. That's when you said it's hard to feel it too.

Speaker 1: 58:36

It's really hard to feel it. You do it for yourself. You think, well, I'm running slower, I'm running in the dark, so I'm heel striking.

Speaker 2: 58:42

But that's where the drills come in, so you can get that subtle kinesthetic sense. But that's where we look at. So if you do any sort of slow motion stuff, that's what we're looking for, so you can land with that vertical shin, but maybe there's a slight bias towards the back of the heel first, or maybe flat, and there are some like a Galen rups, a four foot striker, but what he also allows is at some point that back tripod comes back down, as opposed to somebody who only ever stays on the front. So that lets you know kind of what we're talking about. Heel striking the hot and heavy one are the ones that like that back tripod's hitting and the two front tripods are still like maybe a 45 degree angle up from the ground.

Speaker 1: 59:20

So you can see, and you really see the thud in their gait when they hit it is absolutely there's so much force across their foot when they run.

Speaker 2: 59:29

Yeah, man, yeah, there's usually a big slap of their four foot too, and that's where the perineals the outside part of your shin oh good Lord, shin splints all the time from that stuff.

Speaker 1: 59:38

Yeah, so we've done posture, which you think is the most important thing, First thing For done, foot strike and shin angle. I think that was a great point. How about swing phase? You just you made the comment a little while ago about most of our most of the drills are based on swing phase. Right, so you?

Speaker 2: 1:00:02

Well, so in swing phase so yeah, so swing phase, so posture, right, we do that. Start off there. On the drills on the, on the shin contact are going from the. So what I think of as the front half your gait, so it's on the front part of the swing phase as it initiates contact. So even foot strike to me is initiating from the end of the swing phase to make that direct hit with the shin down because, right, that's the back part, that's the front part of the gait, it's in the swing phase and then it's trying to come down before contact to make sure that that shin is vertical. So we drill that open part of the swing phase. Then there's the back end of the swing phase where the foot comes off the ground and and we want to drill that part because that that part is your toe off phase and we want to make sure that that's efficient. And then things are set up at the front to be in a good position.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

If you look at sort of, you think about running, look at the, look at Olympians. Olympians are a great way to see what muscles are doing the majority of the work in in the sport, because they're at their peak, best, right, and so you want to know what physiologically is happening. Look at the Olympian in their sport and those muscles are working more so. Look at a sprinter compared to an endurance runner. Right, look at the glutes and the hamstrings and the leg strength and the big power of what they have. So there's a lot of generating force. When they hit the ground, they are driving backwards right, so there's acceleration throughout the gate cycle as they get to the finish line. An endurance runner is lean. They got strong muscles but they're leaner. They're not. That's not about hypertrophy and power. It's about do you have enough muscle power to sustain what your aerobic capacity can push into? So we are not looking to hit the ground and pull back super hard.

Speaker 2: 1:01:45

So when we run, I would tell you that I think the the place if you want to increase your pace is thigh drive right. So when the toes off, when you're generating the power stroke of the gate cycle is actually when the foot leaves the ground and then you're generating thigh drive. Your thigh is, so your foot comes off the ground. That same side thigh is now going to power through the gate cycle to drive that leg forward to lead to your stride length, and then when the foot makes contact with the ground. That's that elastic recoil, that's that return of energy that we were talking about.

Speaker 2: 1:02:20

So, so the glutes really are not. That's why the glutes decondition as endurance runners. So I see that all the time of like you'll get your glutes stronger, you'll be a better runner. Like, get your glutes to fire into work so you're a more durable runner. Right, I see what you're saying, because they don't do a whole lot, but what they do is important. So the thigh drive component of it is really, really important, and we see a lot of people who are shufflers, people who really don't have a good thigh drive, and it's about setting yourself up for success.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

So. So, on the back end of the gate, when you tow off, when your foot leaves the ground, the first movement before the thigh starts to go forward is the heel should come up. So when you're towing off that lower part of the leg, the heel comes up, making your shin bone If you think about your shin bone at least parallel with the ground, right, so that shin comes up, so the heel comes up, the thigh is parallel with the ground and in that sequence the heel comes up and then the knee goes forward. What we see a lot of people is, as they tow off, the knee is going forward even before the heel goes up. So, again, what you're gonna see.

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

It's similar theme of these are timing issues, right? So the shin angle on strike is a timing issue. And then this tow off position. We have this sort of quick saying of heel up, heel up, heel up, and by heel up we mean you're pulling your heel up towards your butt on that tow off. Just so the shin is parallel. You're not trying to kick yourself in the butt, but you're trying to get that leg out.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

So that's the first step your heel coming up Heel comes up right and the heel comes up, there's a foot position, but we won't get into the vortex of that. That'll just make it more confusing. But you get your heel up and then your knee is driving forward.

Speaker 1: 1:04:00

And it drives forward easily if your heel is up.

Speaker 2: 1:04:04

Yeah, if your heel is down.

Speaker 1: 1:04:06

the torque on the leg is more because you have more of a straight leg you have a longer lever, right.

Speaker 2: 1:04:13

So the lever's longer and you got to swing. Think about swinging a stick. That's really long and how much effort and how slow it is to swing. If you made it half that length it'd be easier to zip. And it's about quickness of movement. It's more efficient, not power moves. You're much more efficient. So just that little bit of extra effort for the heel to come up, a little bit of extra effort from your hamstring to get that heel up then allows you to have better thigh drive. And that comes to our arm swing a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:04:41

You know, a lot of times runners with arm swing we think of like if you can visualize yourself running and your arms are moving back and forth because we're going forward, they think that the arms are sort of like helping you go forward. So as the arm goes forward, we think it's helping us drive. Reality is the power stroke of the arm swing. Is the elbow going back? Why? Because it's driving the thigh forward. If you envision yourself starting a lawnmower right, imagine starting a lawnmower and just using your arm and not using your torso, right. Nobody would really do that. It would hurt your shoulder. You'd be on Moose's table, dr Harry's table, getting your shoulder repaired because you tore it. Starting a lawnmower. You would pull, but you would rotate with your torso right. So you're pulling with your arm and you're rotating with your torso. That's your thigh drive. When you're running now, it's not as aggressive as that, but when the arm goes back, what you're allowing to do is that same side thigh is driving forward, so that's your power stroke, and when your arms go forward, that's a recovery. So the arm elbow back, elbow back, elbow back is assisting in that thigh drive. So if you get your heel up, then you get a better thigh drive right. So that thigh drive and that heel up is a game changer for a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 1:05:49

I see more people that need help on the back end of their gate as opposed to the front end of their gate. Yeah, so that's the heel up drill, where we say heel up, knee up, heel up, and then the knee goes up, not when you leave, the knee goes forward. And you'll see a lot of those people that, if you take a video of yourself, the difference of walking and running is a walker has a stance phase at all times. At no point in time do they ever have any airtime or no feet are connected, so by definition, one foot is connected. Look at a marathon walker. It looks pretty incredible what they're able to do, but at all times one foot's connected to the ground and running is both feet are up in the air because there's bad recovery on the back end. More times than not, if you stop your video when you're leaving the stance phase, when you go to toe off and your foot is still connected, it's that little split second where it goes from being connected to the ground to being off the ground and you pause it right there. Look at your other foot and see if it's on the ground.

Speaker 2: 1:06:51

We have a lot of runners who, by definition, are walking or pretty close to walking, because the other foot's already on the ground, despite, and if you look at them with an eyeball, it looks like they're running, but when you slow it down and it has everything to do with the back end of that gate, yeah and it's.

Speaker 2: 1:07:08

We'll cover a couple of simple drills to do that, help you train this. But hopefully this it's creating a bit of a visual to where you know again, if you're around, hub is what we do and we do it at a very high level. And but now everybody's got that access. So if you can just take a video and just start to say, okay, what are the key takeaways? When my foot makes contact, where's my shin? Is it vertical or is the knee out in front of the foot, so what we prefer to see? And when you tow off, before your knee comes into that mid stance where both knees are together, is your shin as you can tell, it's all kind of shin stuff Is it parallel to the ground or is it still lagging way behind? It's heels up, it's heels up? Yeah, those two things, you know, are huge for your mechanical efficiency.

Speaker 1: 1:07:54

Okay. So I think you did a fantastic job. You know you're looking at stance phase and swing phase. Talk about those key points, I think, which is great. Your key points on posture and foot strike are good. So everybody who comes through says how fast should I be doing this? What's my cadence?

Speaker 2: 1:08:16

Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 1:08:18

Right and again it's a lot like foot strike.

Speaker 2: 1:08:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:23

Right, there's no perfect cadence for you. May not be perfect cadence for me yeah. And most of us think that if your cadence improves a little bit, you'll be a little more quick. Right, yeah, but you may not be more efficient.

Speaker 2: 1:08:42

Yeah, you know. So what is Cade's is sort of funny right. There's so many different things and it's debatable on either side of it. I will tell you one general theme depending on the person more people than not kind of what we talked about struggle with efficiency More times than not. If you just increase your Cades by 5%, almost always good things happen.

Speaker 2: 1:09:07

I'm not saying that like increase your Cadence and everything's going to be great and the more Cadence the better. It's very individualized, but with most people and most runners, if you're not an experienced runner, if you can just increase your Cadence by 5% to 7%, a lot of times these, even mechanical things, improve. Why? Because it's a what we're going to teach about gate is it's a timing problem. So because we're trying to stride and go further out in front of us, we tend to have this sluggish longer over striding gate.

Speaker 2: 1:09:33

And if you just increase your Cadence by like take the number right In one minute, how many steps do you take on that? And we like to do Cadence, not steps per minute on one leg how many steps per minute do you take on one leg? That's one full cycle, one full cycle. And whatever that number is, increase it by 5%. More times than not, good things happen because your timing has to go up and so your efficiency kind of naturally goes up, and that's for a relatively like you know, a relatively new runner or a novice runner generally speaking. But but Cadence is pretty funny man. What do you think about Cades? I think it's funny too.

Speaker 1: 1:10:10

I mean, I work on my Cadence a lot and my treadmill runs. I'll run with a metronome in my ear that will click, because nothing else helps me to run a desired cadence of 90 or 92 without a metronome in my ear. So I go on and it's on a treadmill, I'll run up good, and then I'll set my metronome for 90, and I'm not a 90 runner, I'm more of an 87 to 88 runner. Yeah Right, but I do do think when I run at 90 in my brain I'm running more efficiently.

Speaker 2: 1:10:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:10:48

Right, um, and if I get up to 92, 93, like, like, who's the guy? Y, cody, or whatever, who's who's? Who's who's spending chasing the road, chasing river, and I think once I get up that high I'm less focused on heal up right.

Speaker 2: 1:11:08

Cause.

Speaker 1: 1:11:08

I spend, let let in my brain. I spend less time with my heel coming up to my butt and more time with it working on, you know, being fast, which I do not think is good.

Speaker 2: 1:11:20

Yeah, you're starting to get dementia returns Right and you had increased your cadence from a lower cadence to like where you are now correct, so 86 to 88, but that took work. Yeah, but where were you before that? Where were you before the 86, 88?

Speaker 1: 1:11:32

I was a I mean around 86.

Speaker 2: 1:11:35

Oh, you were 86,. You were 86 the whole time. I thought at some point you were like 81, 82.

Speaker 1: 1:11:39

Well, I might be on a on a on an Ironman, yeah, yeah, but really worked hard to get it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:47

Where 90 was a reach, so 88 felt some better and you feel better in your performance, feels better when you're there, and I think that's a big takeaway from it, right? So if somebody tells you a set number they don't know, right, what we do kind of see is like, if it's below 80, get it out, right? So 80 is your magic number.

Speaker 2: 1:12:08

That seems to be. Yeah, once you're, because once you're like below 80, you're I kind of look at it like same thing with cycling You're mashing, you're sluggish, especially on a run, almost always if you're under 80, you're walking, actually by definition, almost always because because the timing is so off, so. So there's some, there's some like pretty like to me firm things. If I see somebody below, I'm like we got to get that up. And, like I said, if you can see, like most people, if you can increase your cadence by five to seven percent, there's usually a pretty good positive response to it. Well, at some point, right, if every year for the rest of your life, right, you just went by five percent at some point, that's not going to be true, right. But if you've never sort of looked at it, for most people it's going to be true and it's hard because it's it's neurological training, it's not physical training. You get neural fatigue, just like you get physical fatigue in your, your body. Initially, when you've tried to go up in cadence, you just run faster. Why? Because your body's sort of like hey, when we run at this cadence, we run faster because this is the efficiency cadence and you got to learn to decouple that Almost like I think about, like riding a bike where you shift into a smaller gear. So if you're going to work on cadence, yeah, get a metronome. But actually in the studies have shown this make the metronome in your head. Don't, don't become dependent on an audible metronome. It's okay, maybe in the beginning, but start to get that, that, that countdown where you go one and two and three and four, one, and you can sort of do it and you're you're in tune with your body. You can actually make a cadence change that way and by your testing you started to notice where's the sweet spot for you, right, and you, you found it. So I think it's one of those things where you play around with it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:39

Yes, if you haven't worked on cadence, I bet you, if you go five to 7% increase, I bet you have positive effects with it. I could be wrong and in some instances I'm going to be wrong, but you'll know that and you go this one's wrong. But give it some time because it's not easy, and make that change and then maybe you made that comfortable and by the time you get comfortable maybe try another five to 7% and at some point what you're noticing is well, when I go up, I've lost, I don't feel good, my pace is down, it feels more effort, and so you start to find your smooth and your personally. For me, like I drift down into like a lower 84, 82 when I'm really getting sluggish and that's, that's not good, right, and for me when I'm able to get my cadence up to 88, 86 to 88 to me is my sweet spot. How do I know? Because I've been working with it quite a bit and I know that for me that seems to be kind of a sweet spot.

Speaker 2: 1:14:31

If I go to like 90, above 90, I'm forcing the issue and I've lost some of my efficiency and I haven't trained really well there. But when I get lazy I drift right back down to 82. So I've got to be mindful of that. So it's, it's test right and kind of play around a little bit. But for the most part, the grand majority, if you go up by 5% to 7% are going to be a positive thing, and if if you're not seeing that, then you'll, you'll find your right numbers. Sorry, but that's rooster is going crazy. It's our vicious guard dog that will bark and then when you open the door we'll run the other way.

Speaker 1: 1:15:11

Like, yeah, like you did that SR dogs yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:14

So one of the kids must be knocking at the door. But yeah, that's the mystery of kids. He used to see like 88 to 92. In reality, as I've seen exceptional runners run and like 84, you know you'll see a lot of times with the elites run in the upper 90, there's, there's. That's not true. There's elites that run at a lower cadence. Right, find your way.

Speaker 2: 1:15:33

I care whether you have a vertical shin and what your recovery looks like, and then what you're. Let your foot do what it naturally does. Try to maybe mess around with your kids a little bit. Find the number for you, because I don't know about you. When you get tired, you'll notice that cadence naturally goes down. Well, you got something else. So all these techniques that we're talking about switch you, focus on on the 70% mark and beyond of the race or training that you're doing as you get fatigued, because you're getting fatigued and you got. You got the drills and things like that to come back to. So, yeah, so cadence is like all over the map. You can. You can cite any study and and and defend an argument that you want or fight another argument. That's how conflicted everything is.

Speaker 1: 1:16:10

I think I mean I used to. You sent me a workout, I think it was a year ago. Working on cadence right and trying to run the same pace at different cadences is hard. It's really hard, yeah, so if you're running seven, seven, seven, the 30 pace at 84 and seven, 30, and you try to run seven 30 pace at 88. And, like you said, if you're not, if you're not thinking about it, you will naturally go faster, right? So, like you said, you have to decouple that, but that it's not easy.

Speaker 2: 1:16:44

It's neural because it's it's neurological right. Just like training is not easy, it's become easy because you do it all the time. It's decoupling that neural muscular kind of connection together and I you know it's funny I sent that to you and much of times, just because it's a, it's a challenge for me, I've got to stay on top of that and it's happened over time. It's happened on the bike and it's happened in the run. Especially when we go and we train long right, we tend to become like the Ironman shuffle, right, and the Ironman shuffle is just where you have right.

Speaker 2: 1:17:18

The argument I hear sometimes from people is like, well, just put your shoes on and go run, your body will not gravitate to what it, what's most efficient, and I'm like sort of like it's going to gravitate to what's more, maybe metabolically efficient as opposed to mechanically efficient. So the Ironman shuffle, when you're just trying to plot along and you're trying to get to the destination, you're doing any which way you can. Well, this is not a get to. You know, can't be. This is an efficiency, this is a race.

Speaker 2: 1:17:42

So with a little bit of extra effort, so it's. It's. It's hard, but if you drill it and you practice it, you can. You can have good efficiency when you need it most and when you get tired and you're fatigued and you work on these things. So that way you have control over and the the. I think the win with it too is like when you're in those like dark moments and you're thinking about the finish line that's too far away. Stop thinking about the finish line and just be in present time consciousness and look at your form, because there's something to clean up at every moment, absolutely, and you're connected with your body.

Speaker 1: 1:18:11

And I kind of reiterate your statement is training for 70.3, and training for Ironman is not about volume.

Speaker 2: 1:18:20

No.

Speaker 1: 1:18:21

I mean you have to have volume in this kind of mirror swimming, right. So if you're going to spend an hour in the water and you can spend 15 minutes on drills and become more, more, more efficient swimmer, we all understand. If you're a more efficient swimmer, you're a faster, faster swimmer.

Speaker 1: 1:18:40

So we did. Most of us tend to do drills almost every swim session. Right, but most of us aren't going to do run drills every session, Despite the fact there it's probably even more important. Yeah, Cause that's when you're even. You're usually not fatiguing the water, You're fatigued at mile 18.

Speaker 2: 1:18:59

Yeah, trying to get your ass back to the finish line. Yeah, totally, yeah, totally man. And then you know it's easy, you don't. For running, pick, pick two runs a week. I mean, pick one run a week, pick two runs a week is kind of a sweet spot I think of. You know, do some drills right, Look up a skip, look up a march, look at butt kicks, and you know what you're drilling, know what you're trying to do. Think about where's the vertical shin, think about where the the horizontal shin is on the back end of the gate, where the vertical shin is on the front end of the gate, and try to do that. You know one to two, two runs a week and make a big difference. And that's kind of where I went off.

Speaker 2: 1:19:36

Tangent on the the previous part was I was doing long course, so long that I just started to become complacent with my slower cadence. And then it's been hard to get back because I've been in this lower gear, because it's it's easier to keep something as to get it, and I let it degenerate. And now it's harder to get it because I got to go back and retrain it as opposed to right. What's the black belt do when they get into the dojo, right, they practice their white belt skills first. That's why they're a black belt. So, whether you're a new runner, you're a lead runner. Everybody should be doing their drills. Go to a go to a high level collegiate or even high school, but go to a high level track meet and look at all the runners doing their drills. They're at their best right and they're doing drills all the time. So it's something that we all need to do and would benefit from Right.

Speaker 1: 1:20:17

I got to agree and it's, and we have. We have found you and I have found to to be efficient and to run and stay at this, this level, whatever that level is, it takes maintenance work, so that that, that, that that maintenance work to me is nutrition, that maintenance work to me is which I stink at, is mobility, that maintenance work to me is strength, and that, and that maintenance work to me is technique dirt. You know technique drills. I'm good at my swims because I was raised some and I do drills every day, but I'm not so good on the run. Yeah, let's create habits early.

Speaker 2: 1:20:57

It's maintenance.

Speaker 2: 1:20:58

Yeah, it really is, man, I'm not on my mid 40s. I know you you're a little bit older than I am, but but we're. We're both in the same arena. Where it's it takes more than the things we took for granted from before you really have to be mindful of and as you get better with them, it also makes you realize you should have been doing it beforehand and earlier in the phase of it. But if I want to be healthy and I want to, you know, do this stuff for life.

Speaker 2: 1:21:20

And what's hub all about is we're training for eight second and beyond. It's not just about, like, winning races or or, you know, prs and do it that stuff's. It's fun to chase your, your boundaries and your, your perceived limits. But the other is I want to do this for a long time and, and I've had plenty of issues and and, and you know, currently I'm learning this new way of like. I got to do more self care. I've got to do more of the little things, right, right, or else it has a lot to do with my longevity, right, and.

Speaker 2: 1:21:47

And efficiency is a big component of it. Like I said, mobility, efficiency, strength, stability and balance right, those are the key things I think we all just need to be mindful of. It doesn't need to be a full-time training plan, but it needs to be touched, and not many of us because we put run shoes on and we can go out and we can run, right, we can just do it. We can do it any little sloppy way we want to and we can get away with it. Like you were saying. You know, if you have inefficiency, you'll end up injured. There's plenty of people, tons of inefficiencies and not being injured. It helps your anti, right, it helps your anti quite a bit. And then you're also, you know you're going to wear out your joints, right A misconception.

Speaker 2: 1:22:23

I see all the time and and and you know you're the knee, you know ortho and and expertise. But it drives me a little bit crazy when people say, hey, running is bad for knees, running is bad for backs. No, no, bad running is bad for knees, bad running is bad for backs. So if you have good support and you have good technique and you have good mobility, you have good stability. Motor control, like we were talking about before. The knee is essentially protected and the back is protected because they don't move right, they don't, they're stable.

Speaker 2: 1:22:48

But those flaws that we're talking about land in the low knee, low knee, they land in the knee and they land in the low back, because those are the areas that get beat up a ton the quote unquote runner's knee or the compression low back, and those are the victims of poor mechanics or poor mobility, of poor stability. And then and then you look at it and go oh, my knees, the problem like. No, your, your knees, the like, taking the brunt of the problem. So work on these things. It has a lot to do with your longevity, right? It's not just about performance, or else it'll catch up with you.

Speaker 1: 1:23:21

But I have to run 40 miles a week and I only have time to run 40 miles a week. And I have to take my kids to soccer and I only have time to run. I don't have time for this.

Speaker 2: 1:23:34

As I remember from previous podcast of Dr Herring, you're not special right now, but, to be kinder, that happens all the time, right, because we barely have time and we, we, we just want to get our workout in. It makes us sane, it makes us happy, and I get it, man, I'm there too. I think the takeaway from this, too, is like I get it right, and you only have time for that. And I'm not saying take away from that time. What I'm saying is take five minutes in that workout, five minutes, that's it. Make a part of your warmup, that's it. And then get on with your run and do it five minutes consistently.

Speaker 2: 1:24:06

Consistency is king to where it doesn't. I'm not talking about taking, you know, an extra. You know two hours a week and doing drills or doing efficiency, just the little things go a long way. So, no, you don't have time to do it. But I would argue that, like number one, it's not as time consuming as you think it is. Number two, you don't have time to not do it because you can make the short term decision now to, to, to run and get through it. And then you wonder why. You know you got bone on bone joints, right. Why your knees bone on bone. Why your hips osteoarthraic and now you really can't run and your quality of life sacrifice when you need it most in your seventies, in your sixties.

Speaker 1: 1:24:44

So my comment to that patient is number one. You don't have to run 40 miles a week. You get to run 40 miles a week and you get the benefit of that health. But if you ran 36 miles a week and you spent 15 to 30 minutes on the other stuff, then five years, 10 years, 15 years, we're still talking about how you're running 36 miles a week or you have to run 40 miles a week and we're seeing in our cohorts folks that can't run anymore. So most people I see aren't paying their mortgage running.

Speaker 1: 1:25:27

You don't have to run 40 miles a week and I will argue with you you can run 36 miles a week and do drills and mobilization, strength stuff, and if you're a competitive runner or a triathlete you're faster. So get your head out of this. I got to do 40 miles a week, you don't. You get to run 40. Now that's great. But if you were able to run 36 and spent that time doing stabilization stuff, the stuff we've talked about, doing the posture drills, you're going to be much happier when you're old like me.

Speaker 2: 1:26:04

I mean, it's a great message for them, and then I would even back it up with a little bit of what they don't get. So if that's their mindset to be like, well, not only what Dr Harry said, and you get to, and, but what are they fearful of is that they don't want to not run. Well, guess what, in weeks from now, months from now, maybe a couple of years from now, you're running zero miles a week. How about you run zero? Right, and it's not because it's a willpower thing, it's because you can't because you've broken something. So what scares you more? 36 miles a week with very little, and that's that's such.

Speaker 2: 1:26:38

It sounds like the same number, practically, and you're going to get all the benefits of it or continue to do the same thing you're doing, absolutely. Continue to do it. Right, You're breaking down. We'll try to patch up a little bit. It's going to get worse. You're going to probably get frustrated and you'll manage it for a while. And then, pretty soon, you're running 20 miles a week because you can't do 30, because if you do 30, then you can't do, you can't sustain it. And then pretty soon, 20 miles becomes 10 miles. And then you wonder what do you do at that point, and you didn't do the simple things early because you broke yourself down. So how does zero mile sound a year from now? Right, a zero mile sound like six weeks from now.

Speaker 1: 1:27:14

And that's the people that I see that can run zero miles because they've done zero maintenance for the last 10 years.

Speaker 2: 1:27:23

Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: 1:27:25

And they're sad, but that's what you know, what you see. Have to understand the efficiency of running to be able to run when you're 90.

Speaker 2: 1:27:37

I wish people could spend. I wish people could spend like a day in clinic with us, because you can see all the different timelines yeah, right, you can see it, not only the different timelines, you can see the difference of the populations taking care of their body and the ones that haven't, and the wear and tear I mean, you got to see it all the time where you see like no joints, space left because they beat it on the ground. And that's a harder conversation, because now you're like dude, I think it's the same. Right, right, it's not the same. The days of running are behind you, right, and we're not ones to say that. But if you're femur and your tibia, your knees are like bone on bone. Get a bike Right, right, that's not coming back, can't you fix it?

Speaker 2: 1:28:12

I wish I would have saw you 10 years ago. I wish I would have saw you 20 years ago. I wish I could have gotten better habits in your world. Because it's done, it's gone. That's a scary thing. That, to me, is probably the biggest motivator. I'm not a fear. I don't want to instill fear into people, but there's consequences, right. So, like, go ahead and do it your way, but, like, if running is that important to you and it's such an important lifestyle. You're impacting your long-term run health and you could have done something about it. It could have been a little bit of drills to go into your training that would have made you a better athlete, would have made you a faster athlete, made you a healthier athlete, helped you become a more durable athlete, gave you a longer lifespan of your run world. Or you can continue to hammer yourself into the ground. So I mean, choice is yours right, take your pathway.

Speaker 1: 1:29:00

Mama says you ain't special, you ain't special man.

Speaker 2: 1:29:06

So I think it's. We try to make it simple. I don't know man it's. Sometimes I think I make it more complex, but if we look back on it, from what we just covered, what are the simple things?

Speaker 1: 1:29:16

And I actually think you did an excellent job making it very complex topic easier.

Speaker 2: 1:29:23

you know you understand.

Speaker 1: 1:29:24

And in my mind, looking and thinking about what we just talked about, I think you have to understand. There is a stance phase where your foot's on the ground. There's a swing phase when your foot's not on the ground.

Speaker 2: 1:29:37

No.

Speaker 1: 1:29:38

And there's very important points of those phases. That's important as you go along, and we talked about the mid-stance phase and the mid-swing phase is being very important. So I think if you understand the stance phase, you understand the swing phase. I think that's that's very, very important. And the other key things I think you made very clear was posture with a neutral forward lean.

Speaker 2: 1:30:05

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:30:07

We talked about less focus on foot strike and more focus on shin angle, and shin angle should be perpendicular to the ground or even aim forward, not back right. And then swing phase was heel up first, knee drive second, yep. So I think if you can leave this, this podcast, with those key points in your head, that's awesome. Yeah, and the as we move forward, cadence is what your cadence is. And the last concept with this is you have to drill. Got to. If you're a swimmer, you're used to drilling. If you're a runner, you have to drill because it's not, it's a second in nature. And your point about when you get to mile 18 or 20, 23 in a race and then things are shutting down if your brain can go back and live in the moment and you're thinking knee drive or you're thinking cadence or you're thinking I mean, all that stuff can bring you back. I think that's crucial. Yeah, I think you made a very, very complex topic much easier to understand.

Speaker 2: 1:31:17

I hope. I hope that's a hope and we'll talk more. There's so many different. We didn't even talk about the stance phase with, like, the strengthening component. We'll talk more about this stuff. I mean we love it. But yeah, that's hopefully the simple part and if you just I would tell you, if you're looking to do this, pick one thing and try to like drill that and it's only like five minutes worth. Make it part of your warm up, make it part of your routine, make it part of your habits, like you were talking about. And you know, see if you increase your cadence by five percent. Even try that and videotape it and see maybe some of these things that we talked about immediately got a little bit better. Maybe that's the right avenue for you to go through.

Speaker 2: 1:31:53

But, yeah, no, I mean, those are the key takeaways.

Speaker 1: 1:31:56

So in the show notes we'll have some drills. What drills should folks look?

Speaker 2: 1:32:04

up in your mind. So I think there's some core ones that and they may give you a little bit of a different emphasis. They may say the same thing. But as long as you know what you're doing, I think an A march or an A skip is really good. And what you're drilling with that is a vertical shin impact, right, trying to, or a forward shin impact. And you kind of want to visualize your legs like a carbon fiber leg, right, you want that leg, when it hits, to be stiff. So when you that foot strikes down, you want that leg to be stiff and you want to land with that shin. So that way, when you hit like you were talking about those carbon fiber plates in the shoes you get that elastic recoil. That's what you want back from the legs. So a march, a skip for the front end of your gate, that vertical shin For the toe off.

Speaker 2: 1:32:48

There's the butt kick drill, right, and I've seen this sort of like done so many different ways. What you're trying to do with the butt kick drill is you're trying to just flick your heel up very quickly before your knee goes forward. So when you do a butt kick, don't just run forward and kick your heel to your butt, because a lot of times when you're doing that, your knee is actually out in front. So you do a butt kick drill, you're almost trying to be like a donkey kick or a horse kick. You're kicking backwards, you're trying to, and you should feel this really good stretch to the front of your quad. A lot of times our rectus fem and our quad muscles are getting really tight. It's a really nice stretch to do, so it's a heel up. But what you're trying to do remember what the concept is you're trying to get that heel up really quickly to get a horizontal shin. So now you're trying to get the horizontal. That's the butt kick drill. And those are probably two of my favorite.

Speaker 2: 1:33:33

I did forget, obviously, the beginning one, which is the posture right. So that posture where you go nice and tall, you lean forward and you just sort of fall into your stride. When you fall into the stride, don't, don't go upright. Those are sort of the three key. There's a couple other ones that we get in, but if we're just going to keep it really simple for you, do your posture start off drill. Do that maybe five, 10 times, right, check it out a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:33:57

Do your A march. Feel that vertical shin, visualize yourself running, knowing that that's sort of what you want to feel when you're running, do a few butt kick drills and maybe loop around that a couple of times. And then when you run, just run. But they take one thing and sort of think about, like where's my shin? Where's my shin, where's my shin Right, is it directly underneath me? And try to get that better. And then maybe later on you're trying to just get your heel up, heel up, heel up, heel up right. So maybe that's getting a little bit better. And maybe another run you're trying to like just constantly trying to lean forward from the heart. So you're not trying to do all three things at one time. You're picking one thing and you're trying to get pretty good with it. When you start to get comfortable with it, do something else. That makes you a little bit uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 1:34:38

But keep it really simple right.

Speaker 2: 1:34:39

We want a vertical shin when you land, we want a horizontal shin when you toe off and you want to be leaning forward. I mean, that's really what we're trying to do, and then let your. You can have your own style within it, and everybody's got their different styles.

Speaker 1: 1:34:51

And style meaning cadence and foot strike.

Speaker 2: 1:34:53

Yeah, and here's another little tip too Go to YouTube and just start googling runners or in searching runners. Look at the different runners, look how they have different styles, but look how they have all the same sort of core features. Look at your friends, look at everyday runners and look where they're kind of like falling short of that or where they can improve a little bit. If you can see it in others, you can start to get it. But I find that really helpful because there's not one perfect way to run, but there's some core things to minimize the braking and maximize the stride lengths of the thigh drive Efficiency.

Speaker 1: 1:35:28

That's great.

Speaker 2: 1:35:29

So that's it. Clear as mud, clear as mud Clear as mud.

Speaker 1: 1:35:33

I think that was great. Lessons from the Knuckleheads. So for this week, for Lessons from the Knuckleheads, I'm going to do a little story to lead into it and then Rob's going to give you your lesson. I watched a post race interview with Sam Ladlow, who just won Ironman World Championships in Nice, and he was on the short, the short course track up until about 18 and wasn't doing that well and he and his, his, dad's a triathlon coach and he realized he didn't really like racing short course and he had seen Ironman World Championships in Kona.

Speaker 1: 1:36:16

His, his dream was to win Right, and so he and his dad sat down with a white piece of paper and then it made a long term plan at age 19. That in three years, he would hope to make the podium at Kona, and at four years, which would have been 2023, this year, he hoped to win so long term plan. He he was second last year.

Speaker 1: 1:36:44

He- was second last year Last year he got passed at the very end and this year he won. So he and his dad sat down four years ago with long term plan.

Speaker 2: 1:36:53

Was something that he think he he honestly didn't think he could do, but they mapped out that.

Speaker 1: 1:36:58

He thought he could do it, but he didn't have the skills at that point. Oh gotcha.

Speaker 2: 1:37:03

Gotcha. Yeah, that's incredible man. It goes to show you, I mean, what you don't have in the current moment. But that's, that's a lesson from Knuckleheads, right, it's, especially when you go into the gate. I mean, that's Sam Lidlow, he's mapping out several years of it. So you know, as you start to look at maybe making some of these changes, don't expect it to happen overnight, right, it's, it's. You know, don't throw your toys out of the cot when something doesn't go right. So two weeks into it, if you're not like maybe having the perfect form yet, you, just you can't do it yet.

Speaker 2: 1:37:30

Like keep working If Sam would have given up when you know he had challenges or a race went bad or he thought he couldn't do long course and he had a bad day and he's like I knew I couldn't do long course and then it never did so. When you're doing things, stay persistent, make a goal and achieve that goal right. Do the small things every day and, even if the thing doesn't lead to it, watch what happens. I mean, amazing things can happen, just with time and consistency and a and a goal Be patient, Be patient Long course.

Speaker 1: 1:37:57

You cannot be hurried.

Speaker 2: 1:37:59

Yeah. So, be patient with the drills, do them consistently and and you'll get good things. Woo wee man. That was a long. That was we're trying to demissify and make it simple. I'll hopefully. Hopefully we got to some simple things, but that was. I don't know what you're thinking today. I think it's good.

Speaker 1: 1:38:20

Yeah, I mean, every time we go in deep diveways, I'll you know. I definitely learned something and I think you're to did a really good job, simplifying as much as it can be simplified.

Speaker 2: 1:38:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:38:32

We've got a lot more to add in future. You know future shows, but I thought it was outstanding.

Speaker 2: 1:38:37

That's my, that's my problem. I you could talk about this stuff forever, right, it's fun and there's so many different tangents of vortex. You can go down and try not to make it too too crazy. So hopefully there were some good takeaways. But but yeah, no, I enjoy it. I hope hopefully everybody else enjoyed it. I know Dr Harry andI are very passionate about it and give us some feedback. Yeah, give us some feedback. Things you would like to hear in different angles and there's plenty of things to kind of, you know, dive into on this stuff. At the end, it's all about you guys. So you'll find us at hubtrainingcentercom. You can send us emails at hello at hubtrainingcentercom. So we're on Facebook and Instagram. Love to hear from you and hopefully training in life is going well for you. As Moose would say when you come to a fork in the road go uphill, but watch your step, do it efficiently.